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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #260 on: January 13, 2019, 08:44:25 PM »

None of that article disputes what I said. In point of fact, they used infrared light from those Y Brown Dwarf Stars to actually detect them. As infrared light is most of the light emitted from such stars, it stand to reason that those stars can only be detected by infrared light analysis. Not much, if any visible light is emitted by any object that cool. We are hotter, and we don't emit visible light. Why should a Y Brown Dwarf be any different if it is cooler than we are? Even Jupiter is hotter, according to infrared analysis. It is known to be 5 times hotter than it should at its distance from the Sun.


Infrared is only a wavelength range of light; it has no temperature of its own, just as all other wavelengths don't. We use the wavelengths to determine temperature of the objects emitting the light, not the temperature of the light. It only heats a surface that it hits by absorption of the light hitting it through what we call energy transference. The energy absorbed becomes heat energy, and that energy is re-emitted as infrared light.


It's really a lot more complicated than all that, but thats the best I can do without writing a whole book about it.


I just meant it's violet. Maybe not ultra but it's violet and it's cool. But yes it's in the infrared end of the spectrum.

Animals that have night vision see the heat signatures in infrared, which is what I meant by that being the 'hot' end - the end that sees the heat. Infrared radiation is heat due to being 'excited' but doesn't have heat itself. Right? It's been a day.............

Thanks for your explanations Cleve.

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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #261 on: January 14, 2019, 12:00:09 AM »
How many of us hear know about energy conversion? It is the conversion of one type of energy to another type, such as light to heat, sound to electricity, electricity to light, heat to kinetic, etc. Any type of energy can be converted to any other type. There is also something called potential energy, which is what  we use to make our vehicles go. Fuel is the stored or potential state of energy. But in the case of what I have been talking about in recent comments concerning light and heat, the conversion is light being converted to heat, and as that heated surface cools, it is converted back to light, though not the same wavelengths it was before it was converted to heat.


Measurements of the energy have shown that the energy used in a given process of conversion is preserved in its entirety, meaning all the initial energy put into the process remains at that constant energy level. Some of the energy radiates away, yes, but the point is that is is still proportional to the amount of energy used from the beginning , when its level is added to the total level of the final energy action. This is what is known as Conservation of Energy.


Most energy we use on Earth is energy that has been through constant conversions from one type to another. The only way to create new energy is through nuclear processes,like what happens in the Sun and our own nuclear power plants.
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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #262 on: January 14, 2019, 12:33:45 AM »
Well, I figure that just about any creature that has two brain cells that fire at the same time understand energy conversion.

I gave an example of it once to my sister....I converted the energy of thought, to my foot, which ultimately impacted her ass! God, I love physics!
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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #263 on: January 14, 2019, 12:45:00 AM »
Well, I figure that just about any creature that has two brain cells that fire at the same time understand energy conversion.

I gave an example of it once to my sister....I converted the energy of thought, to my foot, which ultimately impacted her ass! God, I love physics!
 :viking:    :tearlaugh: :tearlaugh:
Now that's funny! Thanks for the laugh!
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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #264 on: January 14, 2019, 06:15:30 AM »
Wow, go to sleep for a while and the world moved into a whole new dimension by the time I woke! 

The LONG reply: 
I pretty much got all that Cleve.   There is still no difference between the 'getting older' and time passed for distance traveled.    Which effect is SEEN as red shift in moving away from us and blue shift for coming toward us.   Doesn't matter whether photons age or diminish,  I was speaking to measurable time from traveling through a distance (variable) space.  We consider the speed of a photon one of the constants of natural law.
I first learned of the Doppler effect in high school as it was applied to and demonstrated with sound.  More recently I've been seeing it applied to light.   And in between, Doppler is also applied to radio frequencies, as in Radar.  So, same thing.   It means the Measured Thing from which Doppler is experienced is going the same speed in any case.  Its speed relative to US who are experiencing the effect is the variable.   
I wondered about that while in class as an apprentice in the steel mill.  "Can I apply Doppler to electrical current?"  But shook that thought off with a grin to self, being as Electrical currents EFFECT is speed of light.   It'd take one hell of a lot of current to push electrons through a wire long enough to yield a noticeable time difference between ON and (effect) OFF or Motion or whatever.   
We have a few constants in natural law to work with to deduce speeds, distances, sizes, etc.  Oh, just now read (while checking my memory against recorded fact) that radar waves do travel speed of light.   And, speed of light is slower in air than in vacuum.   As you say, materials do impede light.   And the really funny part about this whole discussion is that light, when impeded and slowed down, returns to its original full speed when it is clear of the impedance.  THAT is freaky.   And that one fact alone should have the entire Science community works standing on EAR with the implications that one fact presents.

Everything we think we know is wrong!   

A photon sure isn't much, is it?   It has nor uses fuel, no engine or motor, yet it vibrates at a constant frequency infinitely, as far as we can tell.   It travels through space at a constant speed.   HOW?  Light IS energy, right?  Photons are energy.  We have Science types playing with it all the time.   
Apparently learning is an excruciatingly slow and agonizingly painful process.   We haven't learned that much more about light in the 40 years since I first learned Electricity can directly produce Light as well as Heat.   And, Infrared Light = Heat.   We have learned how to do more with light, but not that much more about it.   
I think of PHOTON as an element, much like lead or gold.   I know the stated basic components of atoms.  The nucleus is made of protons and neutrons, and nucleus is by a property know as nuclear force able to hold in orbit a number of electrons which is determined by the number of protons in the nucleus.  Fudge around with  those specifics and get very few known results.  Probably the gentlest being Electron Valency.  Where a surplus of electrons in one atom gives up one or more electrons to a neighboring atom that has fewer electrons, and passes one or more on to a neighbor atom, and so on, thus forming Electrical Current.   Infrared Light is still Photons, right?  Even through the gentlest atomic action, we can see the production of Photons.  Heat.  We are also aware of Nuclear Atomic actions.   Fusion, Fission.  MUCH more Light, and much more visible Light too. 
Light IS Energy, yes?   Forms of energy.   In what I've written, I am not aware of any 'converting' yet.  Do any atoms deteriorate from the current of electrons?   Well, I guess some of that conductor DID change states in some areas.  Now we're seeing some converting.   We have copper, an element, used as a conductor.  It is not an Ideal (perfect) Conductor.  It has some resistance to current.  However, with a Path formed, current will flow anyway.  Which will generate heat.  With enough electrons converted to heat we also see glowing, Light.  Matter, copper, is by electrical current flow, converted to lighter matter (smoke, gasses) and light (heat and visible glow).
So, where were the Photons 'stored' before we saw them?  Were they stored, or were they created (generated) by the Actions?   And that light travels infinitely unless it strikes something and is absorbed by that thing is given.  Where is that light then stored?  If we speak of a single, particular Photon, and it's absorbed, can we see it again?  And if it is not stored, then what does it become?  Or become a component OF?

Is that too much text to ask the question?  Yeah I kind of tend to tell how to build a watch factory when asked the time.   That's what my dad used to tell me when I was a kid.  If so, sorry bout that.


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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #265 on: January 14, 2019, 07:48:53 AM »
Now that's funny! Thanks for the laugh!

 :thumb_up: It was getting a bit tense, I figured we needed a quick distraction.



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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #266 on: January 14, 2019, 01:32:51 PM »
Wow, go to sleep for a while and the world moved into a whole new dimension by the time I woke! 

The LONG reply: 
I pretty much got all that Cleve.   There is still no difference between the 'getting older' and time passed for distance traveled.    Which effect is SEEN as red shift in moving away from us and blue shift for coming toward us.   Doesn't matter whether photons age or diminish,  I was speaking to measurable time from traveling through a distance (variable) space.  We consider the speed of a photon one of the constants of natural law.
I first learned of the Doppler effect in high school as it was applied to and demonstrated with sound.  More recently I've been seeing it applied to light.   And in between, Doppler is also applied to radio frequencies, as in Radar.  So, same thing.   It means the Measured Thing from which Doppler is experienced is going the same speed in any case.  Its speed relative to US who are experiencing the effect is the variable.   
I wondered about that while in class as an apprentice in the steel mill.  "Can I apply Doppler to electrical current?"  But shook that thought off with a grin to self, being as Electrical currents EFFECT is speed of light.   It'd take one hell of a lot of current to push electrons through a wire long enough to yield a noticeable time difference between ON and (effect) OFF or Motion or whatever.   
We have a few constants in natural law to work with to deduce speeds, distances, sizes, etc.  Oh, just now read (while checking my memory against recorded fact) that radar waves do travel speed of light.   And, speed of light is slower in air than in vacuum.   As you say, materials do impede light.   And the really funny part about this whole discussion is that light, when impeded and slowed down, returns to its original full speed when it is clear of the impedance.  THAT is freaky.   And that one fact alone should have the entire Science community works standing on EAR with the implications that one fact presents.

Everything we think we know is wrong!   

A photon sure isn't much, is it?   It has nor uses fuel, no engine or motor, yet it vibrates at a constant frequency infinitely, as far as we can tell.   It travels through space at a constant speed.   HOW?  Light IS energy, right?  Photons are energy.  We have Science types playing with it all the time.   
Apparently learning is an excruciatingly slow and agonizingly painful process.   We haven't learned that much more about light in the 40 years since I first learned Electricity can directly produce Light as well as Heat.   And, Infrared Light = Heat.   We have learned how to do more with light, but not that much more about it.   
I think of PHOTON as an element, much like lead or gold.   I know the stated basic components of atoms.  The nucleus is made of protons and neutrons, and nucleus is by a property know as nuclear force able to hold in orbit a number of electrons which is determined by the number of protons in the nucleus.  Fudge around with  those specifics and get very few known results.  Probably the gentlest being Electron Valency.  Where a surplus of electrons in one atom gives up one or more electrons to a neighboring atom that has fewer electrons, and passes one or more on to a neighbor atom, and so on, thus forming Electrical Current.   Infrared Light is still Photons, right?  Even through the gentlest atomic action, we can see the production of Photons.  Heat.  We are also aware of Nuclear Atomic actions.   Fusion, Fission.  MUCH more Light, and much more visible Light too. 
Light IS Energy, yes?   Forms of energy.   In what I've written, I am not aware of any 'converting' yet.  Do any atoms deteriorate from the current of electrons?   Well, I guess some of that conductor DID change states in some areas.  Now we're seeing some converting.   We have copper, an element, used as a conductor.  It is not an Ideal (perfect) Conductor.  It has some resistance to current.  However, with a Path formed, current will flow anyway.  Which will generate heat.  With enough electrons converted to heat we also see glowing, Light.  Matter, copper, is by electrical current flow, converted to lighter matter (smoke, gasses) and light (heat and visible glow).
So, where were the Photons 'stored' before we saw them?  Were they stored, or were they created (generated) by the Actions?   And that light travels infinitely unless it strikes something and is absorbed by that thing is given.  Where is that light then stored?  If we speak of a single, particular Photon, and it's absorbed, can we see it again?  And if it is not stored, then what does it become?  Or become a component OF?

Is that too much text to ask the question?  Yeah I kind of tend to tell how to build a watch factory when asked the time.   That's what my dad used to tell me when I was a kid.  If so, sorry bout that.
No need to apologize.


I'll try to explain what I mean by energy conversion, but to do so I will have to name the different types of energy.


Potential Energy: This is energy that is stored in matter. The matter it is stored in is then considered as Fuel. Fuel might be a combustible material, such as wood, or a petroleum based compound; all of which are carbon compounds. Even sugar is a carbon based fuel. We call these types of fuel Organic. Other types of fuel exist, but the most common and useful types are organic, as the reaction with oxygen allows for the release of the Potential Energy they store. In all cases of this release, Potential Energy is converted to Light and Heat.


Light Energy: This is perhaps the most common type of energy in the entire Universe. All light is made up of photons. Whether those photons vibrate or not is unknown, some think they do but others think they don't. I am on the fence concerning that. The reason no one knows is due to the fact that all photons are so extremely small that no instrument can actually 'see' them. In fact photons are what we see all the time, but in such quantities that they form images on our retinas. When you say "I see my computer monitor." that is not completely accurate. What you really see is the photons that emanate from the direction of your monitor. The wavelengths of light determine the color we see. That wavelength is formed by the intensity of the electromagnetic energy producing it, and each wave in a single photon wide ray of light is made of uncountable photons.


Heat Energy: What we perceive as heat is actually the excitement of molecules and the atoms that make up a material. Heat is the vibration frequency of matter. The more it vibrates, the warmer it becomes. If it vibrates at a high enough frequency, the matter will enter the fourth state, which we know as Plasma.


Kinetic Energy: This is simply put the energy of motion. I'm sure most of us here understand what motion is, as we all are in constant motion all the time.


Electrical Energy: Also considered Electromagnetic Energy, it is akin to Light, as it is the primary producer of light. It is produced by many methods, but the main one is Conversion of Matter to Energy, as in the nuclear activity of stars and man's nuclear facilities and bombs. Another more energetic way it is produced is by bringing matter and antimatter together. Total conversion of equal amounts of each will occur. All of these methods are E=MC2 in action. What we call Electricity is actually the flow of electrons through a conductive material.


Now when I say that any type of energy can be converted to any other type, here is an example:
Let's use the way automobiles work. We all know that most automobiles have fuel powered engines. Now to get the fuel and air to the combustion chambers in the engine we use Kinetic Energy, but we'll get to how in a moment. As the fuel and air enters the combustion chamber it gets mixed together and the piston then compresses it. All of this is done using Kinetic Energy. In some engines we get spontaneous combustion, but in most a spark of Electrical Energy initiates combustion. The fuel in the mix contains Potential Energy. The combustion event converts that to Light, and Heat Energy, which is then converted to Kinetic Energy that pushes the piston away along its bore. The Kinetic Energy transfers through all the moving parts of the motor, transmission, drive shaft, and eventually to the drive wheels, moving the vehicle forward. Some of the Kinetic Energy ends up in the alternator, which converts it to Electrical Energy to be used in various ways in the vehicles many systems. Some of the Kinetic Energy is used to move fluids like motor oil, transmission fluid, coolant, and fuel to where they are needed. Then there is the movement of air through the various systems it needs to move through. This includes the intake that moves air to the combustion chambers. Everything works by converting each type of energy to other types of energy.


Not sure if this is going to be understood, so ask questions if you have any. I'll be happy to try and answer them.
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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #267 on: January 14, 2019, 01:37:31 PM »
:thumb_up: It was getting a bit tense, I figured we needed a quick distraction.
I get what you mean. Alas, I am committed to do my best to answer questions about what I write. So tense just might be the trend for a bit longer. I do understand that we sometimes take things to a whole other level. Guilty as charged.
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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #268 on: January 14, 2019, 03:09:11 PM »
I got a question for all you galactic egg-heads.
 :ifonly:

If you fart in space, does it make a sound? Even better yet....Do farts in space accumulate and become gas giants?
 :shrug:


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Re: 3D space, astronomy, alien systems, all that cool stuff
« Reply #269 on: January 14, 2019, 04:41:53 PM »
I get what you mean. Alas, I am committed to do my best to answer questions about what I write. So tense just might be the trend for a bit longer. I do understand that we sometimes take things to a whole other level. Guilty as charged.

You're doing fine :smiley: I'm exhausted right now due to going to the store and putting all that stuff away, etc. and I can't really concentrate on much of anything at the moment.

Obviously, I don't know about this stuff so much because I never really bothered to learn it. It's ALL far away in reality, and I won't be looking through any high-powered telescopes any time soon (whole life there). My reasoning there.

Thanks again for your explanations.


 

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